[00:00:00] I'm here today with Harold Wright. Harold is a historian from St. John that's shared many, many times at the Kiwanis Club, and we're coming up on Remembrance Day when this episode is actually going to be aired. So I'm looking forward to hearing some of the history about the military in St. John, and particularly how it connects with Partridge Island. So Harold, welcome to NB Traveler.

[00:00:28] Thank you for having me, Mark.

[00:00:30] Will you just talk a little bit about how the military first showed up on Partridge Island from the standpoint of fortifications and what they were doing there?

[00:00:39] Well, certainly. Of course, St. John is the city founded because of the American Revolution. So we're founded in war. So when the American loyalists came in 1783, one of the first things they had to do was look at the defense of the new city of St. John.

[00:00:56] So in 1791, they built a series of gun batteries to protect the harbor. And one of those gun batteries that was built was on Partridge Island. So the military history of the island begins in 1791. At the same time, it was established as a light station.

[00:01:16] So military history started in 1791. How important was it in the War of 1812?

[00:01:23] Well, I guess, I can sum the entire history of St. John is being important for one reason only, the Port of St. John. All our defenses were defended against attack by sea.

[00:01:37] So all the defenses were basically coast artillery. And the first war period that we actually had to engage in would be the War of 1812 between Great Britain and the United States.

[00:01:50] So that 1791 gun battery in Partridge Island was expanded around the lighthouse. They built a great big redoubt. They put in about a dozen guns.

[00:02:03] And it was there to make sure that the American privateers or any American ships that came up the Bay of Fundy, we could defend St. John.

[00:02:11] The best news, though, is that it didn't happen. We weren't attacked.

[00:02:16] But it actually revealed a problem between the military and the light station.

[00:02:21] Because every time they fired their guns, the poor lighthouse would shake, the lamp would get knocked over, burnt, or blown out, the windows would break.

[00:02:30] So during the War of 1812, there's this ongoing discussion. Don't fire your guns. Move them.

[00:02:36] It's causing damage to the lighthouse.

[00:02:38] Dear light keeper, move your lighthouse because you're telling the enemy where we are.

[00:02:42] So it's comical.

[00:02:44] That is very interesting.

[00:02:47] Now, at the same time in 1812, or around that time, was when Carlton Martello Tower was built.

[00:02:54] What was the relationship between the tower and Partridge Island?

[00:02:59] Well, actually, Mark, it was an important component because each of them, the island, Martello Tower, and the lower cove where there were other gun batteries,

[00:03:10] they were all part of a coordinated defense system.

[00:03:13] Again, they weren't actually.

[00:03:15] We like to say we never fired a shot in anger.

[00:03:18] Well, if you're in the artillery, you never fire a shot in anger.

[00:03:21] You know exactly what you're doing.

[00:03:22] We didn't have to fire a shot in defense.

[00:03:25] We were never attacked.

[00:03:27] So technically, our military sites, Martello Tower included, weren't used for their original purpose.

[00:03:36] I know we're jumping ahead in time, and we may get back to some of the early history of Partridge Island and Martello Tower.

[00:03:44] But it was in the 1940s when the Second World War began that the tower played a significant role, wasn't it?

[00:03:51] Yes, Martello Tower did play a significant role during the Second War as the coordinating fire command post for all the Coast artillery,

[00:04:01] which would be Fort Mispack, Partridge Island, the Coitid Bay Breakwater, and Fort Dufferin.

[00:04:07] So they did add the concrete superstructure with the telephones, with the rangefinders, and the maps.

[00:04:15] And that's how they coordinated.

[00:04:18] One of the, again, I always try to find some humor in the serious history stuff I do.

[00:04:25] We were visited by two U-boats during the Second World War.

[00:04:29] That Bay of Funded, there were two U-boats off St. John, off Partridge Island.

[00:04:34] One landed the infamous spy at St. Martin's, which we did not find about publicly until after the war.

[00:04:43] And the second one was a U-boat that laid off the port of St. John off the island for, I think it was six nights, seven days.

[00:04:50] And the U-boat commander would say things in his shift log like,

[00:04:54] Don't those guys know there's a war on? The city is lit up like a Christmas tree.

[00:04:59] The airplanes from the airbase at Millersville, the planes were flying so low that they almost hit my conning tower.

[00:05:07] I mean, the comical type.

[00:05:08] Today, I'd say comical.

[00:05:10] But again, we didn't find that until the 1950s that there were two U-boats here.

[00:05:16] So, they were needed, but we didn't actually have to use them because we were never attacked.

[00:05:22] You want to go into a little more detail about that spy story?

[00:05:26] Well, actually, it's well documented.

[00:05:29] I mean, the Germans did land a few spies in Canada, up in Labrador.

[00:05:35] But the one here from the Bay of Funday, he landed at St. Martins, came into St. John, eventually made his way to Montreal, made his way to Ottawa.

[00:05:46] And then he spent a couple of years, I'm going to say living the good life.

[00:05:50] Until, of course, he's running out of money.

[00:05:53] Then come D-Day, we're winning the war.

[00:05:55] So, again, if I can find a bit of humor here.

[00:05:58] Goes up to the RCMP and says, Hi, I'm a German spy.

[00:06:01] I want to surrender.

[00:06:02] Yeah, sure you are.

[00:06:05] No, I really am.

[00:06:06] I landed at St. Martins.

[00:06:07] So, actually, they went to St. Martins.

[00:06:09] They dug up his raft, his uniform, his papers.

[00:06:13] And he was arrested and imprisoned.

[00:06:16] And he was shipped home after the war.

[00:06:19] Basically, from what I understand, he spent his money on wine, women, and maybe a bit of song, but heavy on the women's side of things.

[00:06:27] Well, that's quite interesting.

[00:06:29] What was the ethnic mix of the soldiers on Partridge Island and in St. John?

[00:06:36] Ethnic mix.

[00:06:37] Okay.

[00:06:37] Well, I actually began my research on the military history of Partridge Island informally in 1974 and then formally on November 4th, 1977.

[00:06:50] I met dozens and dozens of First World War soldiers who were stationed there.

[00:06:55] And then, again, Second World War.

[00:06:58] And between those two wars, we're probably talking the area of about 5,000 men on the island during those periods of time.

[00:07:05] Most of them were artillery.

[00:07:06] There were a few Air Force, a few Navy, Army Service Corps.

[00:07:11] But most were white Anglo-Saxon Protestants because that was the ethnic makeup of St. John.

[00:07:16] There were a few blacks that were in the military for short times on the island.

[00:07:21] And one of my favorite stories is Gunner Carl Sacoby, who was an Indian from Kingsclare.

[00:07:29] He spent time, and I actually have some of his, I have a letter that he wrote saying, I'm being treated like an Indian rubber ball.

[00:07:38] I want to get out of the Army.

[00:07:39] I'm too young.

[00:07:40] A lot of racism.

[00:07:42] But he also carved statues.

[00:07:44] And I have two of his statues of a soldier and of a moose.

[00:07:48] But, again, for the First War, about half the soldiers would have been of Irish extraction, both Protestant and Roman Catholic here.

[00:07:58] So they got along okay in the military?

[00:08:01] Oh, gosh, yes.

[00:08:02] Because one thing in the military, you know, I've got your back, you've got mine.

[00:08:07] Although, in the Second War, Carl Sacoby didn't think anybody had his back.

[00:08:11] When were the military works on Partridge Island officially closed?

[00:08:17] Well, actually, we were a bit afraid that the North Koreans, during the Korean War, might attack St. John.

[00:08:25] So after the war, after the Second War, the military works were placed in, they were stabilized in case needed.

[00:08:34] And at the beginning of the Korean War, the military said, we've got to fix up Partridge Island.

[00:08:40] We've got to make it ready for the next war.

[00:08:43] Not so much the North Koreans, the Russians.

[00:08:46] So the military went out and they would start to fix up the various buildings, you know, the plumbing, the heating, things like that.

[00:08:54] And then after a good day's work, they'd come back in the city.

[00:09:00] Well, I'm going to say the West Side of the story.

[00:09:02] If you're a West Side of the story, this is on you.

[00:09:04] They would go out at nighttime and they'd rip out the copper and the wire and they'd steal the sinks.

[00:09:10] So the military would come back the next day and find out everything had been stolen.

[00:09:13] So after a bit of that happening, the late Senator Dan O'Reilly of St. John, who was then a member of parliament,

[00:09:20] said, come on, Mr. Military, what are you doing with Partridge Island?

[00:09:23] Are the North Koreans really going to attack St. John?

[00:09:28] And the military said no, basically.

[00:09:30] So the official closing of the military works and the military leaving St. John would be in the mid-1950s.

[00:09:39] And they left behind some guns, which I actually owned up until 2009.

[00:09:46] I got ownership of two six-inch naval guns that were on the island during the Second War.

[00:09:52] I know it's not possible to go to the island now,

[00:09:55] and it's quite dangerous for anybody that would try to go there.

[00:10:00] Any thoughts about whether or not that island could ever be developed into a tourist attraction?

[00:10:05] Oh, I don't think we should.

[00:10:07] It's a change.

[00:10:09] The last study that I saw done, which is five, eight years ago,

[00:10:13] it was well in excess of $100 million.

[00:10:15] Not worth it.

[00:10:17] Those type of tourist attractions do not make money.

[00:10:19] They all lose money.

[00:10:21] So they have to be heavily subsidized.

[00:10:23] Now, that's as a tourist attraction.

[00:10:26] But here's my spin.

[00:10:27] If we make it as a cultural attraction, we do it for us.

[00:10:32] It's part of our story.

[00:10:33] We should learn from it.

[00:10:34] Then, yes, it should be done.

[00:10:36] But then you don't have to spend $100 million to make it a cultural attraction.

[00:10:41] You could literally leave it as it is now,

[00:10:43] provide some basic services like water and washrooms and a bit of power,

[00:10:47] and you interpret that's what's out there now.

[00:10:49] You don't restore it to make it look like water during the war.

[00:10:52] So there is a way to do it, but you're still talking tens and tens of millions of dollars.

[00:10:58] I think our boat sailed in the 1990s when we closed our museum.

[00:11:03] The Coast Guard removed all the facilities that were there,

[00:11:08] like the water, the power, the wooden structures.

[00:11:11] One of the military structures now has started to collapse,

[00:11:14] which makes it even far more dangerous.

[00:11:17] And, of course, the wharf is long gone.

[00:11:19] And so it would cost a fortune to provide access, let alone interpret.

[00:11:26] If you do it as a tourist site, but if you do it as a cultural attraction,

[00:11:31] then it's a lot less money.

[00:11:33] It's for you and me.

[00:11:35] It's not for the people off the cruise ship.

[00:11:37] It's not for the Americans.

[00:11:39] It's our story, our history.

[00:11:41] We should be doing it for us.

[00:11:44] Tourism is a spinoff.

[00:11:46] That's a positive benefit.

[00:11:47] You do it for tourists.

[00:11:49] The locals don't go to see it, and we don't learn from it.

[00:11:51] Partridge Island, the military works on Partridge Island

[00:11:55] go from 1791 to the 1950s.

[00:11:58] They're all there.

[00:11:59] It's the only site in St. John that has all of our military history

[00:12:03] in a time capsule.

[00:12:04] And that's only a small part of the island's story.

[00:12:07] So why not save the original buildings?

[00:12:09] For example, Fort Howe, 1944,

[00:12:13] the military decided to demolish the two original 1780s,

[00:12:18] 90s stone magazines.

[00:12:21] As soon as we demolished them,

[00:12:23] someone sort of in City Hall stood up and said,

[00:12:27] let's build replicas to make it a tourist attraction.

[00:12:30] You just tore the original buildings down,

[00:12:32] and now you want to make a replica.

[00:12:34] Unfortunately, that's been too much.

[00:12:36] We have destroyed so much of our heritage in St. John.

[00:12:39] And then we say, well, let's save what we have.

[00:12:43] Original infrastructure, in my opinion,

[00:12:45] is always better than Walt Disney.

[00:12:47] That's a great concept.

[00:12:49] I thank you so very much for being with me here today

[00:12:52] on Envy Traveler.

[00:12:54] And in closing, I'd just like to ask one more question.

[00:12:58] What's at least one thing about St. John

[00:13:02] that you really enjoy?

[00:13:04] The people.

[00:13:05] That's an answer that I often get,

[00:13:08] and definitely one of the reasons

[00:13:10] that I live in St. John.

Season 11

Military History of Partridge Island